The 10 Commandments on tour

NIGHTLINE TRANSCRIPT: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
December 8, 2004 Wednesday

TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS

They came to see it.

VISITOR, FEMALE

It's beautiful. I'm so glad they pulled it out of that dark room and taken it for everybody to see.

TED KOPPEL

To touch it.

VISITOR

None of the laws have changed. Murder hasn't changed. Stealing hasn't changed. They want to take that three-letter word out. And put in whoever, whatever.

TED KOPPEL

To rally around it.

BUCK HILTON, MONUMENT VISITOR

You're free to be a Muslim, a Jew, a witch, a Satanist, anything you want. But that does not change the fact you are living in the United States of America, which was founded by Christians and remains a Christian nation to this date.

TED KOPPEL

And in our 25th anniversary moment, a legend murdered, 24 years ago tonight.

TED KOPPEL

John Lennon of the Beatles is dead.

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ANNOUNCER

From ABC News, this is "Nightline." Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) It was, as you may recall, a major controversy. On July 31st, 2001, Alabama supreme court Justice Roy Moore had a huge replica of the Ten Commandments installed in the rotunda of the judicial building in Montgomery. It was immense, 5,280 pounds. Moved in at night without the knowledge of the other members of the Alabama supreme court. Inevitably, lawsuits were filed, charging that the monument amounted to an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. After the case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, the monument was removed and Justice Moore was ultimately fired. Ever since then, Roy Moore has been touring the country, defending his decision and denouncing the hypocrisy of Federal judges. This summer, the monument itself started a 14-state tour, by an organization called American Veterans in Domestic Defense. Controversial? Sure. Although we tend to forget sometimes that our religious arguments in this country, these days, are pretty tame stuff compared to what happened when Moses brought the original Ten Commandments down from Mt. Sinai. He descended to find the Israelites worshiping a golden calf of their own creation. In the version of that story found in Exodus, Moses was so furious that he ordered the Sons of Levi to go through the camp and "each of you kill your brother, your friend and your neighbor." Exodus records that about 3,000 people were killed that day. Nothing like that, no bloodshed or violence in this story. But here's what Jim Kabinis did. Born in Alabama, a veteran of the Korean War, an Evangelical Christian, he got himself a truck. Well, why don't I let John Donvan tell you the story. He went on the road with Kabinis and the Ten Commandments.

JOHN DONVAN, ABC NEWS

(Voice Over) The truck was Jim Kabinis' idea. We live, he believes, in an America full of enemies. And the truck is his way of fighting back. Or rather, it's what's on the truck. It's a 2.5-ton piece of granite. And into it, a sculptor has carved into the shape of a book, the Ten Commandments that God gave to Moses.

VISITOR

I'm glad I get to see it.

VISITOR, MALE

We need to get back to the way things used to be.

VISITOR

We want them to be able to be seen everywhere and acknowledged.

VISITOR

It's beautiful.

VISITOR

None of the laws have changed. Murder hasn't changed. Stealing hasn't changed. They want to take that three-letter word out. And put in whoever, whatever.

VISITOR

All right. Smile for the camera.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) This is Kabinis' goal, getting the faithful to show up, which they do, because they believe. And because this stone has a history.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) Along the way, do you find that everybody knows the story of this sculpture, they know about Judge Moore and what happened?

JIM KABINIS, SCULPTURE CURATOR

You know, it's amazing. I think about 95 percent of the people we've seen and talked to knew the history of this.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) Why is that? How does the word get out about it?

JIM KABINIS

Well, it was a powerful story at the time. It made a lot of people very mad when they saw it on television.

NEWSCASTER, MALE

In Alabama, there were arrests today after the state's Chief Justice lost his legal fight to keep a monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments in a public building.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) It was one of the big stories of summer 2003. The chief justice of the Alabama supreme court, Roy Moore, who is a fundamentalist Christian, had personally paid for a sculpture of the Ten Commandments that he then had installed in his courthouse.

NEWSCASTER

This morning, there is empty space where the Ten Commandments monument once stood.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) The sculpture stayed in the building. But it was moved to a back room, out of public view.

JIM KABINIS

The Ten Commandments is important to the foundation of this nation.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) That's where Jim Kabinis comes in. An admirer of Judge Moore, he organized a kind of rescue this summer.

JIM KABINIS

July the 19th, we backed the truck up to the building and we took the beautiful, historical monument out of a dark room of the Alabama state supreme court building, where the -Feds had placed it. Brought it to the light of day. And now, we're exposing it to all America.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) And that's basically it. Kabinis got a truck, a driver and a crew and he hit the road. 14 states, plus Washington, DC, so far. He's whittled his story down to a handful of phrases he uses again and again.

JIM KABINIS

We brought it out in the light of day and will expose it to all America.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) And while it works ...

VISITOR

I'm so glad they pulled it out of that dark room and taking it for everybody to see.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) It can be maddening when you really try to converse with him.

JIM KABINIS

So, we brought it into the light of day and now exposed it to millions of American people. Out of the dark room of the Alabama state supreme court building and moved it in the light of the day. And we want to show it to all America.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) If you tell me that one more time, I'm going to scream.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) No offense meant there and none taken. The thing is, as Kabinis would explain, as we drove between towns in his car that same evening, he lists the news media among America's enemies. That could explain his falling back on those few phrases he's come to trust. Jim Kabinis fought in the Korean War. He went on to start a construction firm. And along the way, he decided that America is beset by domestic enemies. It's another of his well-published phrases.

JIM KABINIS

We've allowed too many domestic enemies loose in our own country.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) He keeps a list of these enemies in his head. It can also be found in the literature put out by the veterans group he founded, American Veterans in Domestic Defense. America's domestic enemies are the Socialist news media, the tyrannical IRS system, the immoral film industry, the American Civil Liberties Union, government- promoted gambling, among others.

JIM KABINIS

Our goal is to search out and identify the many domestic enemies. And then put together a strategy to neutralize their negative impact on society.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) How does the commandments fit in?

JIM KABINIS

Well, we determined our failing judicial system was one of our major domestic enemies. That's how we got involved with Judge Moore.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Kabinis convinced Moore to lend him the commandments so that he could go out to America and rally the people around the ideal of a US government guided by laws that come from God.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) So, what kind of reaction has the Ten Commandments tour been getting?

JIM KABINIS

This is our 74th tour stop in the last 90 days in 15 states of our country.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) That part of the story when we come back.

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JIM KABINIS

How many of these commandments do you have to break before a sinner is destined for Hell?

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Jim Kabinis told me a million people had been up that back ladder to see the Ten Commandments. A million. That would have meant 13,000 people a day by this point in his tour. We saw, maximum, about 2,500 over the course of two days. Still, that's a good sized crowd of people. And as Kabinis predicted, many of them already knew about the sculpture and about how it had been evicted from public view in Alabama. And like Kabinis, many believed that happened primarily because there are people out there trying to stifle Christianity. In Bossier City, Louisiana, I met a woman who came with her grandchildren, Kathy Neely.

VISITOR

There's a lot of people probably against Christians.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) You think they're against Christians? You think their point is to hurt Christians?

VISITOR

Oh, yeah. I definitely think that they are against -well, Jesus said, they -hated me and they're gonna hate you, too. So, that's how we have to be motivated to take a stand.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Neely and others who came agree with Kabinis that America was founded for Christ. Buck Hilton is a cowboy sing with a voice like polished brass.

BUCK HILTON

You're feel free to be a Muslim, a Jew, a witch, a Satanist, anything you want. But that does not change the fact that you are living in the United States of America, which was founded by Christians and remains a Christian nation to this day.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Hilton was there with his wife, Susan. They took note of the carvings on the sculpture's sides, references to God and Christianity, made by Americans dating back to the Founding Fathers. The creator was named in the Declaration of Independence.

VISITOR

We want to stand up for our freedom of speech and freedom of religion. And we think it's important to defend our -faith and our beliefs.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) That's what the stone often evokes, an overwhelming sense that once America was better. Fred Lowery, the minister of the church that was hosting the commandments that afternoon, says the Founding Fathers broke with England in order to establish morality here. And he fears that achievement is going to be lost.

FRED LOWERY, MINISTER

And now, we as Americans, are following England. And if we don't do something to stop it, then 20 years, 50 years, we will be -where England is now, we will be in 25 or 50 years.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) So, England is a bad -example, then, of what a country should be?

FRED LOWERY

When it comes to moral values. And when it comes to Biblical values, from my perspective, that's not the direction -that's not the model that we are to follow.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) What do you see is happening in England that demonstrates their -moral weakness?

FRED LOWERY

Well, I'm not an authority on England. I just go there and see that churches now are museums and that nothing is happening. Lives are not being changed. It's simply man -anything goes and man can do anything that he wants to do. That's where we are -we're headed in America.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Then, the truck made an appearance in Longview, Texas, in the parking lot of Springhill High, a public school. Kabinis had entered ground zero of the church-state controversy. In his lifetime, it had become illegal to conduct prayers or display religious symbols in public schools or on school grounds. Yet, here he was. Obvious question to the school principal, Mike Gilbert, who arranged for the kids to go out and see the sculpture, was this pushing legal limits?

MIKE GILBERT, SCHOOL PRINCIPAL

Yes, it's the Ten Commandments. If we were doing something and we were trying to push this issue from the standpoint of, you know, we were making this a religious rally, a revival or something like that, then we would be pushing the limits of the issue. But I don't think that's what we're doing.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) What they were doing, Gilbert explained, was a current events lesson. Not a religious one. Given that the sculpture was at the heart of a news-making legal case.

JEFF SIMMS, TEACHER

Judge Roy Moore had a -monument built of the Ten Commandments. It weighs 5,280 pounds or something like that.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) And that is exactly how Jeff Simms was handling it. A graduate of Spring Hill, he was back with a hair cut and a college degree. This was a government class. And he spelled it out, the side of the story that Jim Kabinis cannot or will not see.

JEFF SIMMS

Which way did they rule in 1980? They said that it advanced religion, a specific religion over another in the classroom, and that was unconstitutional.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) And the other side, which most of his students found easier to connect with.

STUDENT, FEMALE

Everything in our Constitution or whatever, I mean, it's kind of based on religion, on the Christian faith. Like, we have a motto, "in God we trust," God Bless America. And just all -I mean, it's based on it.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) By now, they brought over the smaller kids from the nearby middle school. Kabinis had a captive audience.

JIM KABINIS

People say, why is it important? And I say that the Ten Commandments are the clearest and most powerful presentation of Earthly wisdom ever handed down by God for the benefit of all mankind.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) That's exactly what Mike Gilbert is forbidden to say to the kids in school. Are you Christian?

MIKE GILBERT

I am. I believe the Ten Commandments are part of who I am. That means that every time somebody deals with me, and every time I deal with someone, hopefully that comes out as a part of the way I do things.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) I asked Jeff Sims the same question.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) So, you're a Christian.

JEFF SIMMS

I am.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Exactly the same answer as his principal. But here's a difference ... Mike Gilbert feels one way about the rules that separate church and state.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) Would you rather live in an America where you can pray in schools and can put the Ten Commandments on the wall?

MIKE GILBERT

Sure. You know, I think that's something that -I think people ought to have the opportunity to choose. I think they ought to have the opportunity to see those symbols.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) Jim Simms, on the other hand ...

JEFF SIMMS

The values that I believe and hold dear, I feel like I portray those everyday in the way that I teach and the way that I deal and interact with students and teachers.

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) So, you don't need symbols on the wall to communicate those values?

JEFF SIMMS

No. Because I think what those symbols and the benefit of having those available come at cost. Because with the ability to put symbols that you believe up on the wall, does that leave the door open for other people to put other religious symbols on the wall?

JOHN DONVAN

(Off Camera) So, you're okay with -the rules as they are, you're okay with?

JEFF SIMMS

That rule, I suppose, yes. I don't need a cross on the wall to show that I'm a Christian.

JOHN DONVAN

(Voice Over) A point of view that suggests Jim Kabinis still has some selling to do, even among his fellow Christians who live by the Ten Commandments. Not that he minds. Like a pilgrim, he's on the road still. Sure he knows where he's going. I'm John Donvan for "Nightline" in Texas.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Coming next, a guest who says the Founding Fathers were men of deep faith, even Evangelical. So, why should the church and state be separate?

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TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) And joining me now, the Reverend Jerry Johnston, founder and pastor of the First Family Church in Overland Park, Kansas. That was pretty rough back in those old -I mean, that old-time religion -those guys were not wussies.

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON, PASTOR

Well, it's the Biblical record. And it was a different dispensation. And thank God, we live in an age of grace, Ted.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) So, somewhere between the violence, the bloodshed, the harshness of Biblical law and how it was interpreted in those days, and where we are today, where would you like to see things?

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

Well, I think that Christians are passionate. And one of the things that has taken a wake-up call for believers across America is that many of our freedoms, we are potentially losing and these great landmarks of faith, they're right behind the supreme court justice of the US Supreme Court. People are wanting to remove, like the ACLU. And we can't stand by and be silent. We must stand up. But we must do it properly.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) I mean, how would that affect, for example, your ability to practice your faith? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is indeed taken out of every public place, the Ten Commandments. It doesn't in any way inhibit you, does it?

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

Well, it does inhibit me because I love America. And I know that America has a Christian heritage. And I'm not in Saudi Arabia or somewhere else. And so, I don't know of any Bible-believing Christian that would not be very alarmed by that. And the recent election showed you that American Christians are just sick and tired of the way things have been going and they want to create difference. I'm afraid some of us use too much militia talk. There's some Evangelicals like any community, that just almost provoke a fight. I think that's improper etiquette. But I do believe that we can make a positive change. And that begins by speaking up and standing up for what's right.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) When you talk about this being a Christian country, as surely it was originally, you ...

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

I said a Christian heritage.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) A Christian heritage.

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

There's a difference.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) No, you're absolutely correct. A Christian heritage is really of one Christian sect fleeing intolerance at the hands of another Christian sect. So, we have to be very careful when we talk about issues of faith because your faith can be very threatening to me. And my faith can be very threatening to you, if we're not absolutely careful about safeguarding all of our rights. The rights of the least among us.

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

Well, I don't know of any conscientious Evangelical that does not believe imperialism in our country. But the fact is, those were puritans that landed on Plymouth Rock. Those Ivy League schools were principally established to train ministers of the Gospel to go proclaim the Gospel, Ted. There was a proselytizing intent behind that training. That's our heritage. And if the revisionists want to delete it, they're going to have to delete what is accurate American history. That's why this man wants to make much out of Roy Moore. The question I asked Roy when he was here in Kansas City is, couldn't you have had more influence if you would have stayed on the bench? The violation of the law was the one thing that I had a hard time coming alongside of. I believe in the monument, but I sure wish Roy was still on the bench in Alabama today.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) And wouldn't it have been simpler if he had just refrained from bringing that gigantic statue into the courthouse?

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

Well, I believe that an Evangelical should render under Caesar that which is Caesar's. I do not believe we should violate the law in order to create change. And I think that's why we can do positive things and we can influence elections from the precinct level right on up. But when we begin to violate the law, we lose our credibility.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Reverend Johnston, helpful and useful and kind of you to be there. Thank you very much.

REVEREND JERRY JOHNSTON

Thank you, Ted.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) When we come back, it was a late-breaking tragedy that affected millions. And it happened 24 years ago today. Our "Nightline" moment when we come back.

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The "Nightline" 25th anniversary moment, brought to you by ...

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TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Here's what we were planning to do 24 years ago tonight. We were going to focus on the possibility that Soviet troops might be about to intervene in Poland. I was off at dinner when the executive producer called and told me to get back as fast as I could. John Lennon had been shot. We had less than half an hour to change the program. And frankly, we were scrambling.

graphics: December 8, 1980

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) John Lennon was shot at a well-known New York apartment building, the Dakota House on West 72nd Street. And ABC's Rita Sands is standing by live at the Dakota now. Rita, what have you been able to learn since the shooting? Rita Sands, can you hear me?

TELEVISION CREW, MALE

Go. Go. You're on.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Rita?

RITA SANDS, ABC NEWS

(Off Camera) What we know about the suspect at this time, is, first of all, his identity. 25-year-old Mark David Chapman.

RITA SANDS

(Off Camera) Ted, mourners began gathering here soon after the news of Lennon's death. And there are easily now a thousand mourners who have come to pay tribute to him.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) What you saw there at the end was actually the second version of the program that we did for the West Coast. By that time of the morning, hundreds of John Lennon fans were standing out in the dark and the cold, holding candles and singing Beatles songs.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) That's our report for tonight. I'm Ted Koppel in Washington. For all of us here at ABC News, good night.